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don reid
USA
92 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2010 : 11:25:59
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i bought a new set of cables all the way around for my project and while replacing the clutch cable, i came across something that made me ask "is that right?"
after the oil drained out, there was this goldish grease (?) or something. normal expected behaviour, or issue?
don reid | 1972 T150V trident 750
california |
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RodH45
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2010 : 17:57:18
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My first thought is that this is caused from water or condensation build up that mixed with the oil. Oil and water mixed would float on top and would then drain last. Doesn't seem to be much but is something I would try to find out where any water could possibly be getting in the primary case.
Was there any debris in the oil? Any metal shavings? Did you rub the gold-grease stuff between you fingers and note any shavings at all?
I have no experience with your Trident but if it has a tube where the alternator wiring goes through it may be how moisture is getting in if it is not sealed properly. Of course this would be a source of an oil leak too. Good to check out during the next clutch work.
Ah well bla bla bla.. Just my $.02
RodH '68 TR6R |
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rwarner
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2010 : 21:13:36
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Hello All;
Don, as Rod said, I also have no experience with three lungers but, I did at one time (in my teens) have an old '57 Ford Panel Delivery that a buddy and I broke a head bolt on during a long block rebuild. I didn't know then, but now realize the white foam was coolant(water) leaking from the jackets into the crankcase. Yada,Yada, Any way, I ran the truck for years without a hic-up.
Change the lub frequently, keep an eye out for ways that the moisture can get in. When it's "time" for clutch work you can investigate even deeper.
FWIW, this is the interweb
Bob
'68 T120R |
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f scott dundas
Australia
154 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2010 : 22:59:44
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How long has the bike been sitting for ?
Scott |
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rookie
USA
305 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2010 : 00:04:52
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condensation mixing with the oil ?
1972 TR6R
1974 T150V |
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JubeePrince
USA
796 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2010 : 08:23:53
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I think Scott and Lorin are on to it....
I'm not as familiar with the triple set-up, so while there may be a way water is finding it's way into the engine, more than likely it's condensation.
While you typically see this more in the gearbox, condensation can and does build up in all the bike's fluids. Riding regularly and long enough will bring the bike's gearbox oil and motor oil up to temperature and evaporates this moisture.
If the bike has been siting along time or is in a part of the country where there are large swings in temperature or humidity (probably about anywhere in the US except for perhaps the desert southwest), this is a common problem.
The problem can be exacerbated by short 'bar hops' or putts around town, where the bike is run, but not brought up to temperature long enough to 'cook' off the water. Then as the bike cools from the putt around town more condensation develops....
Another reason why these old bikes need to be run regularly!
Cheers,
Steve
'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike" What's in your garage?
"The paying customer is always right." |
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don reid
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2010 : 13:21:39
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its been sitting a while.
hard to see there, but that sticker says 1979 was the last time it was registered. it was a garage sale ad find that my father in law showed up with cash in hand at 6:00 am for. he then trucked it out to me.
he's aces. =)
don reid | 1972 T150V trident 750
california |
Edited by - don reid on 02/26/2010 13:25:38 |
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don reid
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 17:50:15
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in that first picture, does that whole retaining nut/nut/assembly have to be removed to get to the cable?
don reid | 1972 T150V trident 750
california |
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Grumpy
New Zealand
493 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2010 : 20:27:30
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Not only do you get to shag his daughter but he fronts up with the $$$$ for a bike, mate yo uhave it made.
Very definitly moisture, did you change all the fluids before you started her up?
Cheers,
Trev
1938 5T.....work in progress
1966 T100 Cafe racer
1959 T20 Cub (in captivity)
Oh and one modern of another marque
My Triumphs don't bleed they are just marking their territory. |
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don reid
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2010 : 14:23:23
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i of course paid him for it, and married his daughter. =)
i have yet to start it up, however it did sit at a shop for a minute before it came to me. looks to me like the answer would be a big fat no on the "did they change the fluids" before riding it around slc.
don reid | 1972 T150V trident 750
california |
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Grumpy
New Zealand
493 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2010 : 19:46:49
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Very definitly change all fluids.
Strip carb and clean
Drain & flush gas tank and clean taps
Drain oil tank and flush
When you first start it take cap of oil tank and make sure oil is returning, if not SHUT IT DOWN ASAP.
Cheers,
Trev
1938 5T.....work in progress
1966 T100 Cafe racer
1959 T20 Cub (in captivity)
Oh and one modern of another marque
My Triumphs don't bleed they are just marking their territory. |
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JubeePrince
USA
796 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2010 : 21:42:11
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Lorin -
Tell Don what he needs to do before he starts the bike!!
Steve
'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike" What's in your garage?
"The paying customer is always right." |
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rookie
USA
305 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2010 : 08:35:05
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Steve,
My triple is a work in progress as well. I'm learning as I go the same as Don. I bought mine a couple of years ago and have been cleaning and tinkering ever since. It had been in storage since 1983 when I bought it. I have had it running a couple times , but it has not been on the road yet. I belong to a triple site that has a thread that deals with "waking the beast" . I'm sure they won't mind if I share it here. They know a lot more than I do .
Lorin
1972 TR6R
1974 T150V |
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rookie
USA
305 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2010 : 08:52:57
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This is an article that was written by Phil Pick that he posted on a triple site to share. In the opinion of many he is one of the best authorities on triple Triumphs alive today . I believe this was intended for a rebuilt engine , but there is some good advise for everyone.
Lorin
Waking Up the Sleeping Beast.
A certain amount of tension and stress rises in people when they come to start an engine for the first time. This is true for folk who are held in high esteem as 'professionals' as well as the most inexperienced amateur. Taking a few simple steps, most of which will have self-explanatory reasons behind them can reduce this stress and lower the risk any form of heart attack.
I'll assume, for this FAQ, that the engine is standard and has been refitted to a bike chassis. If this isn't the case and any mention is made of situations that do not occur in the readers’ circumstance, the reader will have to think a little and modify your actions accordingly.
The Triple engines are lubricated (internally) by two methods. Oil that is pumped under pressure and oil that is flung around. This is often called 'splash'. Both forms of lubrication will take a little while to build up so anything that the reader can do to decrease this time will be of advantage. Some simple steps have major effects.
I do NOT recommend, or use, the seeming simple procedure of kicking the engine over time after time, or pushing the bike along a road until oil is seem returning to the oil tank. This practice has the effect of allowing some parts to rub past each other without lubrication for a considerable period of time. The 'splash' lubrication hasn't started at all. So, unsatisfactory.
To allow the 'splash' system to give any oil to the engine internal so supplied there needs to be a quantity of oil already inside the engine and this will be have to but placed there by the reader. So, now some instructions.
Before thinking of attempting a start at all, I suggest you take a mental step back from the bike and run a 'check list'
Are ALL oil hoses connected?
Are all clips and junctions tight?
Is the drain plug fitted to the oil tank, gearbox and (if fitted with an aftermarket sump plate) sump plate?
Is the ignition fully wired, and the wiring in good order with all connections tight? Is the ignition & engine confirmed as 'earthed?
Is the ignition timing correct or as correct as possible?
Is the battery fully charged?
Is the ignition 'kill' switch in the 'run' position, and has this been confirmed by ensuring there is power to the ignition system?
Are the carbs in good order and not been left dry for a long time? If so it’ll be worth putting some fuel in them before the initial start attempt to prove they do not leak. These nothing so annoying as doing all the below procedure and then not being able to complete the work due to a carb leak or an electrical failure.
If time allows, just a few days before the start is going to be attempted put 3 pints of oil, or thereabouts, into the oil tank. A small amount of this will possibly creep down the feed hose towards the oil pump. This can not be a bad effect. If the reader has fitted an aftermarket, suction opened, oil tank 'check' valve I suggest that some oil be injected into the oil pump by 'squirting' some down the feed line to the pump with an oil 'squirt' can, as the pump needs to be wet to generate the suction that will be required to open this check valve. I, personally, do not like these valves and feel that there should be no valve or restrictor that has to be opened by suction on the suction side of an oil pump. To explain a little further, why introduce a restriction is an oil line that another school of thought wants to increase in size (from the original T150/A75 and early T160) 5/16" internal to 3/8" internal?
On start day, complete the lubrication and then start the engine without further delay. To complete the lubrication squirt a small can (about 20% of a pint) of oil into each valve spring pocket. This can be reached using the spout of the squirt can under the rocker shafts. Of course the valve clearance inspection covers need to be removed to give this access. If the reader can squirt fast enough the speed the pocket drains at will be exceeded and the oil will build up high enough to lip over the top of the valve guide and it'll give the stem a bit of a feed. Use the squirt can to dribble some oil along the top of the rockers, particularly at thackery washer end of the rocker. Dribble some oil at the front arm of the rocker so that the valve stem and rocker adjuster is lubricated. Remove the 57-2166 plugs in the rear of the rocker boxes and squirt a small quantity of oil directly down the pushrod tunnels. This'll give the cam followers a wetting. At the same time ensure a little oil hits the back arm of the rocker, so that is runs down past the ball pin into the pushrod cup. Careful during these operations or the reader will need the next suggestion. Clean off the excess oil you've spilt down the exterior of the engine...... Seal the squirt can, if possible, to the rocker feed pipe (using the hose that comes from the main oil return lines) and fill these lines, keeping the feeling of 'pressure' on the squirt can handle for a little while so the rocker shafts are well wetted.
Fill the primary drive with 2 pints of oil. Fill it slowly, after the first 1/2-pint. The amount used over and above the correct primary drive fill figure (in the owners’ handbook and workshop manual) will drain slowly through the drive side main bearing into the crankcase. This is wanted there so that the crankshaft has oil near it in the crankcase to be picked up by the breeze caused (also known as windage) by the crank rotating and splashed into the cylinders and over the camshafts.
I don't usually put any oil into the timing cover (through the timing aperture) as the level hole drilled towards the bottom of the space would drain the oil back to the crankcase before the start was made, but there is no damage at all done by adding a small amount here if the reader wishes.
The gearbox is filled with either its quantity of oil (from the books) or level checked (by model dependant level plug within the drain plug, or dipstick).
Using new fuel, freshly purchased from the petrol station, flood the carbs and start the engine. I suggest that at the initial start, unless something is wrong that requires an immediate stop, that the engine be run at 2500rpm or so until it is gently warm and the oil tank (don't worry that it's not at it's 'full' level, you've only filled the bike with the initial 3 pints in the tank and the 3 or so via the primary drive and valve gear lubrication. The whole idea of the low amount in the oil tank was so that there was no chance of the oil tank overflowing) gently warm too. Now the engine can be stopped and the oil level checked and adjusted. If the head gasket used requires a zero miles re-torque the engine can be allowed to cool and this undertaken a few hours later. If not it's time for a good external visual inspection and then a glass of celebratory (or commiseratory) beer.
If the reader is working in chill conditions it can be very helpful to pre-warm the engine before attempting a start. While doing the lubrication works I have found it useful to have a hot air blower (I used a domestic fan heater or, on one occasion, a hair dryer) heating the engine for an hour or so. The rotational speed achieve by the initial kick-start is much improved and starting is easier.
As a word of caution: I suggest you think of safety too, both your safety and the bikes! Do have another person on hand when you attempt the actual start and do have to hand an up-to-test-date Fire Extinguisher. Dry Power ones are very effective but very messy. I have a CO2 one and a dry power one in my workshop. I'd use the CO2 one first if the fire were small and be prepared to reach quickly for the Dry Power if required. Most 'start-up' fires (and they are very uncommon anyway) are caused by either a wiring 'short' or a carb 'back-fire'. Both can often be dealt with quite adequately with the CO2 extinguisher.
hth, and enjoy the beer!
Philip
1972 TR6R
1974 T150V |
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JubeePrince
USA
796 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2010 : 16:15:06
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That's the gist of it Lorin, great job!
Triples are much less tolerant of low oil pressure than the twins. You need to prime the oil system if you've removed the oil pump or changed the oil filter.
This is from one of the gurus that I trust, John Healy:
Quote
Recommended in most Trident repair literature on start-up of a fresh engine, but often overlooked when changing the oil filter, is priming the oil filter cavity before starting the bike.
The mains, and thus the rods, are fed directly off the oil filter cavity. If this cavity is left empty on initial start-up or after a filter change, it takes some time the pump to fill the cavity. This means that the main and rod bearings start working without any lubricating and cooling oil flow for what must seem like an eternity to the bearing surfaces.
On a new Trident it is part of making sure all oil lines and oil cavities are primed or full of oil. I recommended having oil pressure at one of the front oil galley bolts before turning on the electrics and starting the engine.
A Trident should never be used in anger with less than 65 to 70 pounds of oil pressure at speed. For racing an oil pressure guage is a must!!! Any less and you risk an expensive explosion....
End quote
HTH,
Steve
'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike" What's in your garage?
"The paying customer is always right." |
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don reid
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2010 : 17:38:54
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awesome info all...thanks!!
don reid | 1972 T150V trident 750
california |
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Topic |
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clutch cable replacement...
